Sycamore
Fire and Police Commission
Minutes
The meeting was called to order at 11:06 a.m.
In attendance were Chairman Richard Ubl, Commissioner Samantha Dailey,
Commissioner Andrew Larson, Police Chief Don Thomas, Assistant Fire Chief Cary
Niewold, and City Attorney
APPROVAL OF
AGENDA
Motion
A motion to approve the agenda, as amended, was made by Commissioner Larson and was seconded by Commissioner Dailey.
Vote
Ayes:
3
Nays:
0
Abstain:
0
APPROVAL OF
THE MINUTES
A motion to approve the minutes from the open session of the May 9, 2005 meeting, as written, was made by Commissioner Dailey and seconded by Commissioner Larson.
Vote
Ayes:
3
Nays:
0
Abstain:
0
A motion to approve the minutes from the closed session of the May 9, 2005 meeting, as written, was made by Commissioner Larson and seconded by Commissioner Dailey.
Vote
Ayes:
3
Nays:
0
Abstain:
0
COMMUNICATIONS
·
Theodore Polygraph Services
Chairman Ubl stated that
the Commission had received information from Theodore Polygraph Services, which
advertised that it provides polygraph services for $125 per test.
Chairman Ubl asked Chief Thomas if he had looked at any other providers
of polygraph services. Chief Thomas
answered that he had not, adding that, while the individual they are currently
using is no longer a Police Chief, he is still in the polygraph business.
He said his Department would continue to use this individual for criminal
investigations and background checks for other things.
If the Commissioners choose to, they can also continue to use him for the
polygraph exam that is performed during the hiring process.
Commissioner Larson said that, when he was hired as a Firefighter,
Theodore Polygraph Services administered his polygraph exam.
He added he knows that they provide this service to a number of
municipalities. Chairman
Ubl asked if there was a problem with the current provider.
Chief Thomas said he had been arrested for a DUI and he lost is position
as Chief. However, he is still a
good polygraph examiner. Commissioner
Larson asked if the Chief was recommending that we stay with the current
provider. Chief Thomas answered yes,
but added that it was not a bad idea to have a backup list.
Chairman Ubl asked how much the current provider charges for his
services. Chief Thomas
answered that he normally charges $150, but only charges the Sycamore Police
Department $100. She added that
Theodore Polygraph Services also charges a fair price. Chief Thomas said that he
would add Theodore Polygraph Services to his list as a resource for polygraph
exams and criminal investigations. Chairman
Ubl said he thought the Police Department conducted their own criminal
investigations. Chief Thomas
clarified that a provider would be called if they needed to have a polygraph
administered to a suspect who had committed a crime.
Chairman Ubl asked if a contract had to be signed with a firm, or if they
were retained on a case-by-case basis. Chief
Thomas answered that it is case-by-case.
Commissioner Larson asked
if the polygrapher uses a standard set of questions, or if they are
Sycamore-specific. Chief Thomas
answered that there are two levels of questions.
The first level consists of approximately 100 questions that are standard
to the industry and are used in the pre-testing process.
The candidate is not yet hooked up to the box at this point, but these
questions enable the polygrapher to ascertain the candidate’s of truthfulness.
Chief Thomas added that it is at this level where most of the information
is obtained. He said
that, when the polygrapher finally hooks the candidate up to the box, only a few
questions are asked. Two or three of
them are control questions and these are used to establish the measurement on
the machine when the candidate is instructed to give a false answer to a
question. The polygrapher then asks
the remaining four or five questions which count as the actual exam; these
questions may be asked several times. Chief
Thomas added that this procedure is standard in the industry.
He went on to say that a candidate who flunks the exam may state that he
or she answered all of the questions truthfully, which may be so; however we did
not like his or her answers. For
example, the candidate may be asked when the last time was that he or she smoked
marijuana. The candidate may answer
truthfully that it was in the last four hours, which may then disqualify the
candidate. Chairman Ubl asked if
there has ever been a candidate who sued the Commission because he or she
thought he or she had passed the polygraph, but had ended up failing.
Chief Thomas answered that this has not happened here.
A motion to approve using Theodore Polygraph Services as a secondary testing company was made by Commissioner Larson and was seconded by Commissioner Dailey.
Vote
Ayes:
3
Nays:
0
Abstain:
0
·
Next Commission Meeting
Commissioner Larson asked when the
next meeting of the Commission was scheduled to take place.
Recording Secretary Tritle answered that she thought it had originally
been scheduled for Monday, November 7th, but was changed to Tuesday,
November 8th, as Commissioner Larson was unavailable on the 7th.
·
Fire Lieutenant’s Oral Examination
Commissioner Larson reported that
he had spoken with several of the Firefighters, who told him that some of them
would be out of town around the time that the oral promotional exam is scheduled
to be given. Recording Secretary
Tritle answered that the Fire Lieutenant oral exam is scheduled to be given in
September, and added that this date has been set since June.
Assistant Chief Niewold reported that the International Association of
Arson Investigators will be meeting September 12 – 16 and that two of the
candidates who had expressed their intent to take the examination must attend
this meeting, as their attendance is required for certification.
Chairman Ubl asked which days the oral exam had been scheduled to take
place. Recording Secretary Tritle
answered that she thought they were scheduled on September 14 and 15.
Assistant Chief Niewold suggested that one solution would be to
reschedule the exams on September 14 and 21, to accommodate the candidates who
will be out of town. Or, both exam
dates could be changed to September 21 and 22.
Secretary Tritle reported that, to date, 8 firefighters had filed their
letter of intent to test and wondered if the Commissioners could administer 8
oral exams in one day. Commissioner
Larson asked how many Firefighters are eligible to take the exam.
Assistant Chief Niewold answered that there are probably a dozen
Firefighters who are eligible. Commissioner
Larson said that, depending on the length of each interview, he thought they
could probably complete the oral exam in one day.
He asked if they would allot each interview to one-half hour, as they had
done with the Police entrance exam, or if the Commissioners thought they would
need more time. Chairman Ubl
answered he did not know, since none of the Commissioners present had ever been
involved in the promotional testing process before this.
He added that he would prefer to have had I/O Solutions handle the oral
examination, but had just ascertained there was not enough money in the budget
to cover this cost. Assistant Chief
Niewold stated that the Firefighters’ contract specifies how the exam is
supposed to be administered. Chairman
Ubl asked about the scoring process. Assistant
Chief Niewold answered that the seniority and Chief points are assigned first,
then the oral exam, and lastly the written exam.
He recommended that the Commissioners reschedule the dates of the oral
exam to a time when all of the candidates can participate and the Commissioners
can complete them in the least number of days possible.
Assistant Chief Niewold also
reported that there was a class for the Vertical Technician Rescue Team that is
scheduled to occur September 26th – October 7th in
Recording Secretary Tritle asked
what the Commissioners want to do about the written exam, since she had already
contracted with I/O Solutions to administer the exam and October 1 to both the
Fire and Police promotional candidates.
Commissioner Dailey asked if this training is something that the City and
Fire Department want the Firefighters to obtain as well.
Assistant Chief Niewold answered that is was.
Commissioner Dailey stated that, if they were asking for a postponement
for personal reasons she could see denying their request.
However, since this is something that we want them to do, she feels the
Commissioners should try to work with them.
Assistant Chief Niewold said he would call the Fire Services Institute
and see if they are planning on holding classes on the weekend, adding that he
thought that weekend classes would be unusual.
Commissioner Larson agreed. Assistant
Chief Niewold said that, if classes would not be held on the weekend, the
Firefighters could drive back to Sycamore on Friday night so that they could
take the written exam on Saturday morning. After
the exam, they could return to
Chairman Ubl asked how long it
takes to complete the written exam. Assistant
Chief Niewold thought that it lasted about two hours.
Commissioner Larson stated that, when he took the exam in
Chief Thomas suggested that, in
the future, the Commissioners could avoid this problem by having the test
administered by a testing agency, such as
Assistant Chief Niewold stated
again that he would check and see if classes would be held on the weekend or if
another session of the class will be held at a later date, adding if there
isn’t, then these two Firefighters will have to make a tough decision about
whether they want to possibly be a Lieutenant or certified in tech rescue.
Commissioner Dailey stated that she would hate to see someone have to
make this choice, as it is not fair to punish the two Firefighters for getting
training that will benefit the Department. Chairman
Ubl said that there might be two different version of the test that could be
used; Commissioner Larson answered that there was only one test.
Chairman Ubl asked Recording Secretary Tritle to check with I/O Solutions
and see if they have any recommendations as to how to deal with this scheduling
conflict. Commissioner
Larson asked is the Commissioners would need to call a special meeting once they
decide what they will do about the written exam.
Chairman Ubl answered that they would need to call a special meeting if
any changes to the testing process are made.
OLD BUSINESS
·
Status on Hiring a New Firefighter
Assistant Chief Niewold reported
that Candidate Macaluso’s background check was nearing completion and should
be ready sometime this week. His
fingerprints have also been submitted to the State Police.
Chairman Ubl asked, if Candidate Macaluso passes all of his
pre-employment tests, when he could start work.
Assistant Chief Niewold answered it will not be for a few weeks, as he
still needs to have his physical and psychological exams completed, as well as
the physical agility test. Recording
Secretary Tritle said that she would schedule these exams once the background
check is completed. Commissioner
Larson asked if this candidate was a replacement or a new position.
Assistant Chief Niewold answered that he would be replacing Firefighter
Lyon, who is retiring. Chairman Ubl
asked how many candidates remained on the current Firefighter eligibility list.
Recording Secretary Tritle answered that Candidate Macaluso was 6th
out of the 12 candidates on the list. The
current list expires on September 10, 2006.
Commissioner Larson asked if the 12 on the list were the only ones who
passed the written exam, or if there were other candidates who passes but did
not go on to the oral interviews. Recording
Secretary Tritle said that she would check on this, as she did not remember for
sure if this was done.
·
Status on Hiring a New Police Officer
Chairman Ubl reported that
Candidate Tiffany O’Neill’s final interview with the Commission was
conducted prior to this meeting and that she passed.
He added that she is a very pleasant and charming young lady and he is
sure she will do a very good job. He
said he senses that, if she passes the Academy and her probationary period, she
has no aspirations of moving on to another department at a later date.
Recording Secretary Tritle asked if her start date was still September 1,
2005. Chief Thomas verified that it
was, adding that she will be sent to the Academy the week after that.
He said that she was going to be measured for her uniforms today, since
it takes awhile for them to be delivered and she will need them when she attends
the Academy. Commissioner Larson
asked when she would be issued a gun, and who pays for it, as Ms. O’Neill had
indicated to the Commissioners that she thought the City paid for her gun.
Chief Thomas answered that the Department will loan her a gun that she
can use during her first year. After
that time, she will need to purchase one on her own, adding that the Department
pays for everything but the Officer’s gun. He said that the Department will
spend over $1,500 on a new recruit. City
Attorney Foster added that this makes sense, since an Officer can then take his
or her gun with him or her if they leave the Department.
Chief Thomas answered that the Officers prefer to own their gun for this
reason.
·
Status on Establishing a New Entry-level
Eligibility List for Police Officers
Chairman Ubl reported that the
written and oral exams had been given and the preliminary list established.
They were now waiting for the Candidates to file their requests for
military and education preference points. Recording Secretary Tritle stated that
she had received about four requests so far, but the candidates have until
Wednesday to turn them in so she was expecting to receive more.
Chairman Ubl said that he was surprised to learn that two out of the
three top candidates on the preliminary list had not yet submitted their
requests. The candidate who had,
however, will not receive the preference points due to the fact that he would
not obtain his Bachelor’s degree until December 2005, and the Rules and
Regulations state that preference points for education will be granted to those
individuals who have an Associates Degree in the field of law enforcement or
Bachelor’s Degree in any discipline from an accredited college or university.
Chief Thomas explained that this candidate has 120 college credits, but
will not obtain his degree until he completes his internship.
Even though he does have more than 60 college credits, he does not have
his Associates Degree; therefore he does not qualify for preference points.
Commissioner Larson suggested that this might be something that City
Attorney Foster should review, adding that this candidate is only weeks away
from graduation with a degree in criminal justice.
They cannot give him preference points, yet they can be given to someone
with a degree in history. While not
saying that the history degree is not valuable or is less valuable than a degree
in criminal justice, it does not seem right or fair that, compared to the
majority of the candidates on the list, this particular candidate will be
educated in criminal justice and he cannot be given any preference points for
it. Chairman Ubl stated that he had
reviewed the minutes from the May meeting of the Commission, and the motion that
was made at that meeting was to amend the Rules and Regulations to include an
educational prerequisite of 60 credit hours for Police Officer Candidates; he
could not find any mention in the minutes that stated the Candidates must have a
college degree. Commissioner Larson
explained that the 60 credit hours was a prerequisite to take the test.
City Attorney Foster explained that the prerequisites for preference
points are set by State statute and there is nothing that the Commissioners can
do about this. Commissioner
Larson said that, while this is for Fire eligibility, preference points are not
awarded in
Recording Secretary Tritle had
another question about the current list, which expires on November 1st.
She wondered if the Commissioners would have to go back and administer
the oral exam to candidates who passed the written exam but were not given the
oral exam if a Police Officer needs to be hired prior to November 1st,
since the current list of names has been exhausted.
City Attorney Foster answered that was correct, so the new list must
become effective on November 1, 2005.
Chairman Ubl added that he does not believe this will be a problem, since
there are no other Officers scheduled to be hired before November 1st.
Commissioner Larson asked if they could go without a list, or if they
have to always have a current list. Chief Thomas answered that, if he needed two
Officers tomorrow, the Commissioners would then have to interview that second
tier of candidates and publish a preliminary list.
By the time this process was completed, it would be November 1st,
or it will be too late to get anyone enrolled into the Academy, as, after
September 8th, there is no Academy scheduled until January.
Therefore, for all practical purposes, the Commissioners will be using
the new list. He added that the
candidates on the top half of the list are excellent, while the candidates on
the bottom half are questionable. Commissioner
Larson asked if this was a result of the testing process and if the
Commissioners then needed to alter their Rules.
Chief Thomas answered that the spread on the written test between the top
candidate and the 24th candidate was only 6 points.
The Commissioners only interviewed 16 of these candidates, which is a
good number. However, of the 8
remaining candidates who were not interviewed, some of them would have passed up
the bottom 4 people who were interviewed. He
suggested that, in the future, if there is a tight group, the Commissioners
should interview the top 6 – 8% of the score, since there is not a large
difference between someone who scores an 86% versus an 82% on the written test
when looking at maturity levels and other factors.
Chairman Ubl added that this same rule would apply to the top 29
candidates who passed the written exam; the Commissioners would spend many hours
doing interviews and there may be only four spots open over the course of two
years. Basically, regarding the
current test, 50 candidates passed the written exam. He wondered how far the
Commissioners should go and how much time they should spend on the process when
deciding on how many candidates to interview, since they all have the potential
to do well in the orals and move up the list.
Chief Thomas agreed that these are excellent questions, but pointed out
that they went through twelve names on the current list in order to get four
hires and both lists before that were exhausted with no hires because everyone
was eliminated. He predicted that
the Department would hire 4 or 5 candidates from the new list and could very
well end up getting down to the bottom three candidates, who will probably still
be there because they will not be hired by other agencies.
Chairman Ubl agreed, but added that, if within 8 or 12 months they get
down to that, he is willing to wager than many of these 50 candidates will have
accepted other positions and will no longer be available.
Recording Secretary Tritle asked
if the Commissioners could have told the candidates on the preliminary list that
had a composite score of less than 70 points that they did not pass.
She added that she thought they did this when the current list was
established two years ago. City
Attorney Foster answered that they could do this if it is in the Rules.
Chief Thomas stated that the Commissioners also would have needed to
inform the candidates at the beginning of the process that there was a minimum
passing score. He added that, because the oral interview is only worth 40% of
the total score, those candidates with an aggregate score of less than 70%
obviously did not do well in the oral interviews.
He recommended that, in the future, the Commissioners set a threshold
score for the oral exams. Candidates
who score under this threshold score would be eliminated from the process.
Recording Secretary Tritle asked the Rules and Regulations allow a
candidate to be eliminated before preference points are applied.
City Attorney Foster answered that he would need to check on this.
Chairman Ubl stated that, going forward, he believes that candidates
should be told they will be eliminated from the process if they do not earn a
composite score of 70 or better after the oral exams are completed.
Chief Thomas said that it would be better to state that the candidate
must earn 70 points or better on the oral exam to remain in the process.
If the Commissioners do not like a candidate in the oral interview, it
doesn’t make sense for him or her to move on in the testing process.
Commissioner Larson asked for
clarification as to where they are with the current Police eligibility list.
He asked if the Commissioners would be going without a list until
November 1st. Chairman
Ubl answered that, for the record, there is an eligibility list, but the
Commissioners have not conducted the oral interviews for the second tier of
candidates. Chief Thomas explained
that, in an emergency situation, the Commissioners could skip this whole process
and establish a list of certified Officers, which is what they did two years
ago. Recording Secretary
Tritle asked if, for future testing, it was better to not have two tiers of
candidates. Chairman Ubl answered
that it is better to keep the two years, as there could be a situation in which
the Commissioners would have to go back and interview this tier of candidates.
Recording Secretary Tritle wondered what other municipalities do.
Chief Thomas said that most announce they have two tiers, and both tiers
represent the candidates who passed the written exam.
The candidates in tier one are interviewed now; when the list gets down
to where only five or six candidates remain, they then interview candidates from
the second tier who, in turn, are incorporated into the current list where they
fit. The Commissioners may want to
consider doing this in the future as well.
In regards to the list that will be established on November 1, Chief
Thomas said that he knows the top five candidates in the second tier and they
would make good Officers.
Assistant Chief Niewold reminded
the Commissioners that they are down to candidate number 7 on the current
eligibility list for Firefighters. There
are a total of 12 candidates on this list. Chairman
Ubl wondered if the Commissioners should consider interviewing the second tier
of Firefighters to incorporate into this list.
He asked if there would be any opening in the Department within the next
6 months or so. Assistant Chief
Niewold answered that he thought there would be openings in the spring, as the
plan is to increase manpower for the new fire station.
He added that he thought some of the candidates on the list might already
have been hired by other Departments. He
also thought one of the candidates remaining on the list would not be able to
pass the physical agility exam. Chairman
Ubl suggested that the Commissioners revisit this topic at their November
meeting.
·
Status of the Promotional Testing Process for Fire Lieutenants and
Police Sergeants
The promotional testing process
for Fire Lieutenants was discussed earlier in the meeting.
Chief Thomas told the
Commissioners that he would supply them for questions to consider for the Police
Sergeants’ oral exam. Chairman Ubl
stated that they would also need to receive questions for the Fire
Lieutenants’ oral exam from Chief Riddle.
Commissioner Larson asked if they could also be provided with acceptable
answers for each question. Chief
Thomas answered that he would supply the Commissioners with a matrix for scoring
the questions. Chairman Ubl asked if
the Chief was also allowed to give points to each candidate.
Chief Thomas answered that he is allowed to give each candidate up to ten
points. He explained that he will
have all of his Sergeants and Lieutenants rank the candidates for a series of
skills and talents. He will use
their rankings as the basis for assigning Chief points for each candidate.
He added that this process has been announced to all of the candidates.
Commissioner Dailey left the
meeting at 12:07. The Commissioners
took a short break at 12:10 and reconvened at 12:15.
NEW
BUSINESS
·
Payment of Bills
Chairman Ubl reported that $3,032.91 in bills have been
processed and paid. Recording
Secretary Tritle said that that total is comprised of two bills from the
Illinois State Police for $44.00 each to run fingerprint checks; Police Officer
recruitment advertising costs of $298.00, $368.16, and $80.00 respectively for
three ads; payment to Marv Fogel for two psychological exams; payment to Office
Serve for envelopes; and payment of I/O Solution’s fee to administer the
written Police Officer exam.
Motion
A motion to approve the payment of these bills was made by Commissioner Larson and was seconded by Chairman Ubl.
Vote
Ayes:
2
Nays:
0
Abstain:
0
·
Fire Chief
Assistant Chief Niewold stated that he would ask Chief
Riddle if there was a need to interview the second tier of candidates for the
current Firefighter eligibility list and that he would have him bring it up at
the November meeting of the Commission. He
added that pension portability could have an affect on the number of candidates
the Commissioners will need to interview. Chairman
Ubl said they might consider at the November meeting whether they should contact
the remaining candidates on the list to ascertain their interest.
Assistant Chief Niewold said that they would work on
compiling a list of questions and answers for the Fire Lieutenants’ oral exam.
He reiterated that he would see what he could do to accommodate those
candidates who may be in training at the time the oral and written promotional
exams are given.
·
Police Chief
Chief Thomas reported that John
Michael Domenighini graduated from the Academy on Thursday with the highest
honors in his class. He was number
two academically and he was voted by his peers and instructors to receive the
Warren H. Irving award for excellence. His
classmates also elected him to give the class commencement address.
He started in the Department today and is currently at the
CLOSED
SESSION
Motion
A motion to go into closed session to discuss personnel matters was made by Commissioner Larson and was seconded by Chairman Ubl.
Vote
Ayes:
2
Nays:
0
Abstain:
0
Closed session began at 12:20 p.m.
Motion
A motion to return to open session was made by Commissioner Larson and was seconded by Chairman Ubl.
Vote
Ayes:
2
Nays:
0
Abstain:
0
Open session reconvened at 12:30 p.m.
ADJOURNMENT
A motion to adjourn the meeting was made by Commissioner
Larson and was seconded by Chairman Ubl.
Vote
Ayes:
2
Nays:
0
Abstain:
0
The meeting was adjourned at 12:31 p.m.
Minutes accepted by:
___________________________________________
Richard Ubl , Chairman Date
Attest:
____________________________________________
Jean
Tritle, Recording Secretary
Date